As regular readers have no doubt spotted, we are currently missing one final part of our London and South East Route Utilisation Strategy (RUS) roundup – the proposals for West Anglia services into Liverpool Street and Stratford. This is, in part, because it’s an area where it is proving tricky to get it all to make sense.
One issue, indeed one that several other articles and comments here have recently highlighted, is the lack of capacity into Liverpool Street. It would seem that, according to the RUS, even after Crossrail is built, there will be a lack of capacity at Liverpool Street. Yet if the RUS is correct, it would appear that, by the time Crossrail opens, the lines into Liverpool Street could possibly provide the full 24 trains per hour that Crossrail will run.
So did it really make sense in this financial downturn to bother with the Abbey Wood branch?
This author had always presumed that the primary reason Crossrail had two branches to the east was so that there would be sufficient demand to run a 24tph peak service. After all, if the trains weren't full there would be serious questions about whether the project was properly planned. However it seems from the RUS (and subsequently TfL's HLOS) that by the time Crossrail is in full operation there is probably sufficient latent demand in the east to run Crossrail to capacity without bothering with the branch to Abbey Wood.
Although it is likely, with all the analysis done, that the correct decision was made with the Crossrail project, there were always a couple of issues that that meant that the route could not be considered a perfect fit. An example of this is the termination of westbound trains at Paddington so that passengers can change there for a similar electric train to reach their final destination such as Reading or Oxford. This just does not intuitively feel right, though obviously the reasons for it are relatively well known. Another issue is having the route split into branches at Stepney Green which is very close to London.
Modern philosophy on the underground is to avoid having any branches (think of the most recent construction – the Victoria and Jubilee don't have them and now the Bakerloo has returned to a branch-less status). Those who remember when the Bakerloo had two branches that joined at Baker Street will be well aware of the problems that it could bring – and this was during a period in London's history where use of public transport was much lower than it is now. It would seem that the same logic in avoiding branches, especially ones converging so close to the centre of London, would apply equally to Crossrail.
To make sense of this, therefore, one has to look beyond the viewpoint of a railway operator, although that perspective still has a lot of valuable input. Doing so helps show that there are likely good operating reasons why the Abbey Wood branch is a “nice to have”.
Arguably, these reasons can be broken down as follows:
- We have already seen in the RUS that capacity at Liverpool Street isn't the only constraint to running more trains. The lines out of Liverpool Street are basically running to capacity for much of their length. If the Abbey Wood branch were not built, then there would have to be serious capacity enhancement projects at many locations in East London and beyond. These would no doubt encounter much local opposition and at the end of the day it might just be simpler and possibly even cheaper to build the branch to Abbey Wood.
- Crossrail needs to be a robust railway. Obviously if you get a major incident in the central area there is not much you can do, but you really do not want the service totally collapsing because of a major incident out in the suburbs. The Shenfield branch will be particularly vulnerable to this, as it will continue to share the track with other services. If you have the dedicated Abbey Wood branch you can hopefully run 24tph down it if the Shenfield branch was totally out of service. Sadly, if there was an incident on the Abbey Wood branch the converse would not be true and it is tempting to wonder what the plan will be then. It seems possible that a crossover may be installed at Custom House station on the Abbey Wood branch so that a service could still be run on part of the branch, but this would not help with disruption at Canary Wharf.
- Without the Abbey Wood branch there would still be a major problem of capacity on the South East lines. Whereas creating yet more available slots into Liverpool Street would be a “nice to have”, a scheme to create some available slots into Charing Cross or Cannon Street is desperately needed and if Crossrail did not fulfil this requirement then there would in all probability have to be some other scheme to provide this - and as seen from the RUS there is no other obvious scheme.
- 24tph is used as a basis for the initial service based on the fact that this is the limit at which a reliable service can be run with a fair degree of confidence. It is no secret that the signalling will be specified to cater for at least 30tph, and if it were found to be possible to run more trains then there would probably be a desire to do so. Whereas the Liverpool Street lines may be able to provide getting on for 24tph, which is double what was originally intended, it is hard to see how 30tph could be achieved whilst still making good use of existing facilities at Liverpool Street main line station.
So from a railway viewpoint alone there would appear to be sufficient justification for the Abbey Wood branch when one looks into the issues more deeply. But at the end of the day, railways only exist to satisfy a need (or a perceived need) from society, and it is society that provides the money for these schemes and determines whether or not they should go ahead.
So in this light why did the Abbey Wood branch go ahead?
First it is worth taking into account the huge importance of Canary Wharf station - which will be on the Abbey Wood branch. If this was to be cut then support for Crossrail from the business elements who pushed so hard for it would collapse - and remember it was those organisations that largely gave the necessary momentum that led to project being authorised. Without their final push there may have been no Crossrail. It is also worth bearing in mind that Canary Wharf needs better connections with South-East London, so simply truncating the branch at Canary Wharf would not have been acceptable.
Secondly, without the Abbey Wood branch it would be very difficult to sell the project to the voters who live south of the river. Politicians tend to be sensitive to registered voters feeling forgotten or ignored. A very big plus for Crossrail has thus been the proposed station at Woolwich – one that helps to make a deprived area no longer feel quite so forgotten. Given the hard campaigning done to get a station at Woolwich and the widespread support it received, it would be a political disaster if that were converted to alienation.
One cannot ignore the importance of all this. Indeed, one opportunity they did have to scale back Crossrail was to omit Whitechapel station, which was not included in the early plans. It is not necessary for the business case of the project, but it is necessary because without it you offer the East End of London only pain and no gain and (as ex-local MP George Galloway discovered) a cause with which one can whip-up support.
Finally, as they say, it all comes down to money. The Mayor of London has managed to secure a large contribution from business via business rates to support Crossrail. Business did not come on board to provide better commuting opportunities to Shenfield – they came because they were prepared to contribute to get better public transport into docklands and the city. One suspects that the money would not be there if Canary Wharf was not served. One also suspects that arguments that Crossrail would actually benefit the British economy, and provide the chancellor in the long term with more revenue than the project costs, would collapse without the Abbey Wood branch.
In some ways we are already seeing people starting to think of Crossrail, for operating purposes, as a dedicated railway from Paddington to Abbey Wood with limited services running on other networks westward beyond Paddington and eastward through Stratford and beyond. So in some sense the Abbey Wood line is part of the core service of Crossrail and the line up to Shenfield merely the appendage.
As a final thought, it is worth returning to the point where the routes diverge - Stepney Green. As cited above, there are parallels with the Bakerloo line which diverged at Baker Street for many years. Looking well into the future (and almost certainly not in this author – or likely the reader’s – lifetime) it is tempting to wonder if this will become a critical issue at some point.
One day there may well be serious proposals to construct a parallel tunnel for the two miles between Stepney and the city, and then beyond so that the eastern Crossrail branches each become part of a separate line. In many ways it would be almost pointless to speculate on a route as this would be so far into the future and, as the Jubilee line extension has shown, circumstances change. However, if the DLR were ever to be extended westwards from Bank it is tempting to think that it might turn out to be quite helpful if the tunnels were built so as to be compatible for running Crossrail stock through them…
30 tph is a very ambitious target - not necessarily for the trains or signalling systems but for the passengers. To keep to the train every two inute schedule implies a passenger flow that is abled as opposed to disabled and relatively unencumbered by baggage which considering that at one end of the Crossrail Route is Heathrow Airport and OOC HS2 at the other is Stratford HS2 then a no-bags railway seems unlikely. As the railway will have to be DDR proof from the beginning as compared to the rest of the central core stations it will inevitably attract more disabled passengers for whom Crossrail will be the default choice. I feel 24tph is liable to be the pragmatic operating maximium and extra capacity beyond that will require train lengthening.
ReplyDeleteAn amusing aside - when I attended the Northern line extension exhibition, I mentioned Crossrail. I got a "look" back and a gentle agreement that it is a project with flaws, notably the two Eastern branches.
ReplyDeleteRather than suggesting lots of routes right now, I'd like to know if anyone has seen an analysis of how many possible tunneling routes there are left under London? Obviously Crossrail 2 is a reserved route, but others? If these possible routes really are as rare as gold dust now, then we need to have a big view of the options and use them very wisely.
As a Dartford resident I'm obviously strongly for the Abbey Wood line - according to the crossrail site, Abbey Wood to TCR will take 23 minutes, then with 10 minutes extra to Dartford on Southeastern's network the journey is only half the time that Dartford to TCR via CHX takes.
ReplyDeleteAnyone who travels on Southeastern knows that the service just continues to get worse and worse and the trains more crowded. I have no experience commuting from other sides of London, but the south east could definitely use a pressure release soon :)
As suggested before, I see it as a no-brainer that a curve should have been put in between the tunnels near Pudding Mill and west of Canary Wharf, enabling the operation of services between Shenfield and Abbey Wood directly. Incidentally - this also solves at a stroke the issue of disruptions in the core (though I'd hate to see the crowding at Stratford as passengers change to the Central to get into town!)
ReplyDeleteIt also enables WAML services to run down to Canary Wharf directly, freeing up even more capacity into Liverpool Street.
The fundamental point being that it removes the capacity penalty for branching a service.
...and it would dramatically relieve the Jubilee line at Stratford...I suspect to the point that that line could quite happily head up North from Stratford.
There are THREE major flaws with x-rail.
ReplyDeleteAll to do with short-term and ahort-sighted lack of thought.
All involve short working.
1] Termination @ Abbey Wood is potty - the knitting should be strung to Dartford at an absolute minimum. ANd Perferably Gravesend.
2] The turn-arounds just outsdied Padders is, if anything even more potty.
3] Ditto Maidenhead
Basically, because $ from Canary Wharf are essential to getting the bloody thing built. Operational concerns (with which I agree) don't matter. CW plc has built its own station and committed half a billion quid to the project - therefore, the Abbey Wood branch will happen, whether it makes sense or not.
ReplyDeleteIf we were a sensible country - which we are not - we'd build Crossrail tunnels wide enough for 4 tracks, not 2. It would not cost double the price, but would provide double the capacity in the centre.
ReplyDeleteAs for Abbey Wood - I hope the long term aim is to extend beyond Dartford. Perhaps even taking over from South Eastern. Few actual passengers would be disappointed to see the end of those useless tossers.
"After all, if the trains weren't full there would be serious questions about whether the project was properly planned"
ReplyDeleteI would have thought that the trains being full would be an indication that it hadn't been properly planned - unless we no longer believe in designing for growth.
Does anybody know how the capacity of Crossrail will compare to the Jubilee line in terms of passengers per hour between Central London and Docklands?
ReplyDeleteOr equally how it will compare with the Central line between the City and Stratford?
The frequency will be less than half that of the tube lines in each case, but will the trains carry more than twice as many passengers?
The jubilee line between central London and docklands? I was under the impression it ran from west London via south London to docklands!
ReplyDeleteAs for changing at London bridge to get from the city to CW - I suspect at present it's about 10-15 passengers per train as all the trains arriving at LB are always full!
If your talking about actual train capasity (not empty space on an arriving train then cross rail will have a massive amount more passenger space that the jubilee line.
The Abbey Wood branch is one of the most important parts of Crossrail. The Jubilee line serving Canary Wharf is stretched. Even with the Jubilee line upgrade, Canary Wharf needs additional transport capacity if it is to grow and develop. Abbey Wood and Woolwich will be one of the main beneficiaries of Crossrail as will south east London. It joins up a very disconnected part of town with docklands and central london and gives major journey time reductions for people living in these areas. The route beyond Abbey Wood to Dartford and Gravesend is safeguarded for a future extension, which will extend the benefits of Crossrail to a much larger population. At the moment trains from central London to Dartford take about an hour. This would almost be slashed in half with Crossrail.
ReplyDeleteFor a long time I've held the view outlined in the final part of this piece - that (as at present) the demand from the east will be greater than the west (on Crossrail), continue to grow, and require a separate route through the centre.
ReplyDeleteIt may well be that the Shenfield route forms the eastern arm of Crossrail 2. As the the Wimbledon branch traffic continues to gobble all trains in sight, it will eventually demand it own route and I think Shenfield will be a good match. This could then trigger a nice reorganisation of District & Piccadilly branches and a frequency increase all round.
So for turnbacks at Paddington surely it will take more than 2 minutes to clear the train and close the doors? And who will want to lug their suitcases up from the underground platforms to the current mainline station? They will just wait for the through train.
ReplyDelete"The jubilee line between central London and docklands? I was under the impression it ran from west London via south London to docklands!"
ReplyDeleteBaker Street, Bond st, etc aren't in central London? Waterloo and LB are too in my book, they're in zone one. And since when was Kilburn or Stanmore in West London?!?! It's NW territory!
The British Rail Class 332 Heathrow Express trains have a top speed of 100mph, exactly the same as the proposed Crossrail trains.
ReplyDeleteSo why is HEx going to continue after Crossrail opens, when running Crossrail fast from Paddington to Heathrow will free up Patforms 6 & 7 for mainline services ?
In reply to windsorian
ReplyDelete... because the so-called "planners" are STUPID, that's why!
Re: branches. Despite the trend I don't think that branches on tube lines are inherently bad. I think its more a case of ensuring the service is balanced and junctions are suitable for the intensity of service. The central line is a good example of it working well.
ReplyDelete"So why is HEx going to continue after Crossrail opens, when running Crossrail fast from Paddington to Heathrow will free up Patforms 6 & 7 for mainline services ?"
ReplyDeleteIn the RUS, it states that on Crossrail opening, it is planned that HEx will become part of Crossrail and run on the slow tracks.
I imagine for pathing that they will add a stop or two, to even out the running speed. Ealing Bdy I would guess.
British Airways were apparently very unhappy to not be on Crossrail (i.e. T5). But BAA need to be paid off. I doubt the brand will survive, but I imagine the high fares will now apply to all Crossrail/Heathrow services!
So this will clear those platforms in Paddington, and create 4 more fast paths - which can run at 125mph and so maybe squeeze another path?
These are intended for Reading shuttles, or fast to Reading and then Kennet/Oxford trains.
RE Windsorian said...
ReplyDelete"So why is HEx going to continue after Crossrail opens, when running Crossrail fast from Paddington to Heathrow will free up Patforms 6 & 7 for mainline services ?"
Presumably because BAA have an agreement to be able to extort money from paddington to heathrow customers as they paid for some of the infrastructure cost (and presumably have a fixed term rolling stock lease). As a follow on question will BAA be able to specify the cost of the crossrail tickets to heathrow so they can still extort the money. If cross rail can significantly under cut HEx then I can't see HEx lasting that long as cross rail will be more convienient.
I'm not sure I share the doubts about the eastern branches. The article seems to take the view that the Crossrail is a large central London tube line with extensions east and west. It will obviously be used for central London trips - mostly to/from Paddington and Liverpool Street, but surely it's intended to be a fast suburban railway which gives a choice of central London destinations. In branching terms, Thameslink is even worse, but I dont hear anyone suggesting it be converted back to covering one route only, North to South. As others have pointed out, Canary Wharf is the real eastern destination and connecting across the river makes absolute sense too. I don't dream of extending beyond Abbey Wood, as most travellers on this sort of service will be quite capable of changing trains there, to a multitude of destinations. The Paddington turnback is much more puzzling, but I would guess that other western destinations will firm up (Euston semi-fasts get a lot of mentions) and there will be less and less trains turning around at Paddington as time passes.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I see the lack of demand on the single Western branch a blessing. Why? Because it gives us an opportunity to really sort out much of the Western half of London's rail transport, a good long-term plan.
ReplyDeleteFor example, there are a ton of options in SW London that a 12 (and eventually 16) train branch could go to, freeing up a ton of space into waterloo.
Similarly, the central line stub into Ealing will surely see significant demand reduction once crossrail comes since it duplicates many central destinations, offers similar frequency yet is faster, bigger and has A/C. The central line then has options to either further relieve lines in SW london, provide semi-orbital services there by connecting W and SW, or going to poorly served destinations in W london, for example up uxbridge road and getting those buses off the road.
This then further means you could take the bakerloo from QP to Ealing, taking over that former branch and keep connections between Ealing and Action to SB. The other option is the NW light-rail orbital one. Then there is OOC.....
Basically, the lack of demand has the potential to create lots of possibilities, involving several lines and really rationalizing transport in the western half of the city, both north and south of the river.
I still think the best option for Crossrail in the west would be the Chiltern main line suburban services.
ReplyDeleteIt would provide the needed momentum to get an important chunk of that line electrified, and it would relieve the extremely limited capacity at Marylebone. Between the GWML and ChilternML I suspect they could accomodate the 24tph just fine.
...and Fandroid, I think Thameslink needs pruning. A new tunnel between Finsbury Park and Surrey Quays via Liverpool St and London Bridge would enable 24tph from the GN lines to run onto the SE lines (removing 24tph from both Kings Cross and Cannon St/Charing Cross) as well as 24tph to run from the MML to the BML. Combined with another short tunnel between Euston and Waterloo would enable 24tph of suburban services to vanish from both of those termini.
JRT - Network Rail in giving evidence to the London Assembly Transport Committee's review of HS2 in London told Val Shawcross that they proposed to divert the WCML Milton Keynes trains currently running into Euston over a new new chord at OOC on to Crossrail in order to release the capacity to rebuild Euston without closing the whole station. If they do route these trains via Crossrail it makes sense to route these trains right through to Southend from Shenfield - a case I argue in a forthcoming piece here.
ReplyDeleteThe Chiltern line routes into Marylebone will no doubt have to strengthened as in the days of the original WCML electrification and the EMT on the MML may need to revive Project Rio
to ensure that congestion on Euston from long distance services is similarly reduced/
"The jubilee line between central London and docklands?"
ReplyDeleteThe Jublilee line starts in Stratford. In the same way that the M1 starts in Leeds.
Mwmbwls, you might find this interesting/useful.
ReplyDeleteI saw that evidence, though I'm not convinced. The information on the Euston rebuild suggested demolishing the non-station properties to the west of Euston and building the HS2 platforms first, then linking them to the existing Euston approaches, permitting the Virgin services to be diverted into them. With the eastern side of Euston vacated, it can be demolished and rebuilt. Once those two sections are available, the suburban services can be diverted into their new permanent home on the eastern side of the station whilst the final, centre, section of the station is rebuilt for the Virgin services. Once the station is complete, the Virgin services can take up residence in the centre of the station on their new platforms and the vacated HS2 platforms will be ready for HS2.
No need for Crossrail diversions.
I suspect instead they're planning a raid. "Look, if we diverted these services away, we can rebuild Euston much smaller and cheaper".
A new chord from the WCML also won't be able to adequately serve the planned OOC interchange easily as it'll be halfway to Willesden Junction by the time it passes OOC on it's way to meet the GWML.
It's suitable as a stopgap measure I guess...but I don't think it'll be the ideal way forward. Euston to Waterloo giving a dedicated 24tph-style service on the WCML will do that.
If nothing else it'd massively inconvenience passengers from Watford south to London wanting WCML intercity services and needing Euston for that (there's an easement for that as so few now stop south of Milton Keynes, let alone Watford anymore), no to mention those wanting KXStP (no interchanging at Farringdon to Thameslink isn't as good - the loading on that interchange are going to be nightmarish as it is!).
Anonymous, the Jubilee line could start on the Moon and end in Telford, but that still would not change the fact that for part of its route it goes between central London and the Docklands.
ReplyDeleteA crossrail style tunnel from Euston to Waterloo looks good, except that the inner suburban flows are as unbalanced they are between Liverpool Street and Paddington. The potential for transfer of other north-western services is limited too, unless Thameslink is raided. I guess that Euston-Waterloo could act just like the current Crossrail, with effectively a new terminal station underneath Euston providing a lot of relief for Waterloo and a bit for Euston mainline. Wherever it goes, I feel that Crossrail 2 should focus on taking full-size suburban trains out of existing termini. In contrast, the Chelsea-Hackney line is increasingly looking like just another tube.
ReplyDeleteLONG-term, like Paris wee need FOUR x-rail services.
ReplyDeleteWe've got two:
N-S
&
E-W
So we need NW-SE & NE-SW
Ex-GC+ex-LNW to SER (taking over "East" Thameslink services)
and
ex-LSW to the Northern & Eastern part of the GER (Lea Valley etc)
We wo=ill need a "rolling programme, so that as x-rail finioshes, one of the other two starts.
Which one is more urgent is a matter for debate, but given the loadings and crowing, I would suggest the NE-SW should be done first.
Would you need "Chelney" if the latter was built ???
JRT -
ReplyDeleteone idea and I hope it is used, is that building the chord for Crossrail to access the WCML would also mean that Virgin trains could run from Paddington to the WCML during Euston closures.
The time penalty would probably only be about 10 mins and they could use some of the spare platforms from HEx and Readings (the ones which aren't on the shorter platforms near H&C).
So the service could be maintained, maybe slightly lower at 2tph for B'ham/Manc maybe. With additional trains to MK perhaps.
The final version of the London and SE RUS has just been published, and has a fair bit to say on WCML/Crossrail/Heathrow - indeed destinations are found for 24 tph west of Paddington now.
ReplyDelete10 tph Heathrow (subsumes HEx)
8 tph WCML
6 tph GWML
Read L&SE RUS this morning. Pleased with proposal to replace 4tph HEx with Crossrail and extend line to Staines. This will free up Paddington platforms 6 & 7 for mainline fast trains (140mph after ERTMS operational.
ReplyDeleteAlso plans for Waterloo Eurostar platforms etc and increasing Windsor Line trains (via Putney) to 10 car.
Thought is a bit vague over Western Access (North) to Heathrow. Implies Crossrail from T5 to GWR near West Drayton which I presume is via the mainly disused Staines (West) and West Drayton Railway
Re jubilee line - yes all these stations people mention are in central London, but as far as canary wharf people are concerned it does not link into the CITY (ie Liverpool street, bank, moorgate area) - what it does do is allow people from Kent to come to NX/NXG jump on the ELL an then goto work via a change at Canada Water.
ReplyDeleteThe Abbey wood branch both finally gets a direct link from the city to canary wharf (that is a lot faster than the dlr) and also will releave the ell/ Canada water interchange, which is always busy as the jubilee line trains are always full up from Waterloo/LB by the time they get there anyway.
And as for Euston the layout at St Pancrass would seem to be the beat with sub-urban trains running below ground through to Waterloo and beyond but thata going to cost £££££££££ which we don't have
LOTS of stuff in the RUS.
ReplyDeleteDefinitely worth a post/thread of its own.
Some random and new hidden gems, like a spur branch from Bakerloo Hayes extension to Beckenham Junction?
Or WLL/NLL train lengthenings to possibly be 6 car and not 5 car which is what TfL proposed only weeks ago.
Or a new spur from Shepherd Bush WLL to OOC for SB-WLL terminating trains (the Southern peaks I guess?)
Or potential electrification of the Reading-Basingstoke line for fast trains released from HEx.
(or, or, or!)
Not much on Abbey Wood branch or extensions east of there though.
Just read my way through the new RUS actually.
ReplyDeleteSadly no mention of a chord between Stratford and Canary Wharf.
Trying to stay on topic...but they suggest a 5th track from Surbiton to Clapham Junction. Great idea!
They suggest CR2 as mitigating the need but tunnelled out to Wimbledon instead. I say do both.
They also mention that extending SWML services to 12 cars isn't feasible due to platform constraints at Waterloo (due to increased occupancy). If that isn't a good reason to tunnel to Euston to remove terminal constraints I don't know what is!
As for the mismatch between the SWML and the WCML...why can't the WCML have it's frequency increased to match the core tunnel? It's a 2 track railway after all...what works further down the line works further up it!
Increase the Tring terminators to 6tph and the Milton Keynes terminators to 6tph and you have your 12tph. No reason these couldn't be doubled either and then you have your 24tph, same as the SWML. Perhaps even throw in the DC lines as well and up them to 6tph. Many combinations possible.
Michael said... "the Jubilee line could start on the Moon and end in Telford," but only if the drivers would put up with their journeys to work.
ReplyDeleteOn CR2 the RUS basically killed chelney, with network rail writing that you get better returns going down the SWML rather than Wimbledon district branch and the safeguard should be changed to reflect this, which i agree, as that idea is old hat now and see us wasting billions. You kill two birds with one-stone - i.e. the crowding on the tube and the future problems on SW london's rail network.
ReplyDeleteI find the discussion of the western end of things in this thread extremely interesting.
ReplyDeleteI live in Ealing. My family home is in Warwickshire - I choose either Coventry or Leamington Spa to travel to/from London.
Hooking the western end up to Chiltern and to London Midland services have both been mentioned.
Having great familiarity with both stretches of line, I think that LM to Tring/Milton Keynes makes a deal more sense than anything Chiltern. It's already electric, and all of the stations have at least 8-car platforms already. Plus, as all four of the lines through MK can be used by Pendolinos, I suspect that the signalling wouldn't pose a problem for 10-car Crossrail stock.
I think there's a lot of sense in a plan to move the most stopping sorts of London Midland train onto Crossrail from Euston. I'd not put it back after Euston was redeveloped, either - far better to keep it on Crossrail and redevelop Euston as a nicer place designed for longer-distance travel - a proper home for HS2, VT and long-distance LM services.
I don't see huge disadvantages to this. Leaving just the Northampton-and-beyond services on the slow WCML lines aside from the Crossrail bunch wouldn't be over the top. Watford and MK would still have fast services to Euston that way.
I don't think the lack of interchange at Old Oak Common would be too bad - after all, for people currently on services to Euston, a single change at Paddington would be a lot better than the status quo.
This would also reduce pressure on Euston tube, which would make Boris and others happier as they worry about the impact of HS2's arrival there.
I would want to see the totality of Crossrail services operated with Crossrail rolling stock. The Desiro cars that would be displaced would make for more modern replacements for the beyond-Reading Turbos into Paddington than the currently planned cascade from Thameslink. Those trains could then be used elsewhere - pick something and electrify it, maybe in the north where it's generally not quite as vital to have air con.
I say beyond-Reading because to make this all work, it would probably be best to have Reading as the western terminus for Crossrail and remove as much other clutter from the GW relief lines.
I really would like to see this happen. I think it would improve things greatly, and I don't see that it conflicts much with other plans (eg for capacity usage on the WCML post-HS2).
The one 'downside' that I can really find to the plan is that it would require a follow-on order of some more Crossrail stock. In the context of the benefits to be gained, the thing that doesn't surprise me but which I wish did surprise me is that the powers that be aren't pushing this idea really hard as a fantastic opportunity to get a substantial capacity enhancement for a huge chunk of commuterland at a knockdown price.
mr_jrt: "Increase the Tring terminators to 6tph and the Milton Keynes terminators to 6tph and you have your 12tph. No reason these couldn't be doubled either and then you have your 24tph, same as the SWML."
ReplyDeleteFreight paths, and the WLL service would be a good reason.
Don't forget that in the post-HS2 world that the WCML fast lines are much more available than they are now. I'd imagine that The Milton Keynes services would mainly run on these, with the Tring services mainly running on the current slow lines. That leaves plenty of capacity for the WLL Southern services to run up the fast lines, and plenty of freed capacity for freight. If they're able to fit freight down the GEML on the same lines as Crossrail (not to mention the GWML), I think the WCML will have no problems.
ReplyDeleteJeremy said... "the powers that be aren't pushing this idea really hard as a fantastic opportunity to get a substantial capacity enhancement for a huge chunk of commuterland at a knockdown price."
ReplyDeletePhilip Hammond will have spotted that angle in no time.
I have carefully followed the argument for connecting Euston suburban trains into Crossrail.
ReplyDeleteIt implies
1)an early detailed design for the HS2 Old Oak Commmon station,for these trains to run through it
2)a route for the new tunnel from west of OOC to south of Wembley Central (not stopping at Willesden Junction)
3)powers to build these
4)money
That's pushing it a bit to open by 2019. And, I fear, offers a reason to delay investment in greater campacity on the West Anglia main line in the Lea Valley.
27 July 2011 15:44 Greg Tingey said... "There are THREE major flaws with x-rail. ... All involve short working.
ReplyDeleteAll your three points are in the L&SE RUS as aspirations for CP5.
I wish I was as influential as you!
Well its too bad that the powers that be didn't want to truncate existing Southeatern services on the Greenwich and North Kent Lines at Abbey Wood. This would have given those stations further down the North Kent Line faster service Central London via Crossrail, while those services now terminating at Abbey Wood should transfer over to London Overground.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the abbey wood services being transferred to LO along with the catford loop services.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that has always seemed strange is why the grenwich lines trains via blackheath and lewisham don't stop at New Cross? This just makes it very frustrating to get from the grenwich lines onto the ELL. Is this die to track and platform layout between lewisham and new cross? (ie the trains that do stop at NX come into Lewisham from the Hayes lines.
If this is the case then the South Bermondsey Junction interchange station discussed in other threads would seem to be even more of a good idea, as it currently take two seperate changes to get from the grenwich line onto the ell (Lewisham - change to hayes line platforms) and then new cross - again changing platforms via the inderground tunnel.
Surely its this sort of interchange issue that so frustrates south eastern rail commuters?
James - the easiest way to change from the Greenwich line to the ELL is to walk from Deptford to New Cross. Less than 10 minutes on foot, but not generally advertised as a potential interchange.
ReplyDelete"A very big plus for Crossrail has thus been the proposed station at Woolwich – one that helps to make a deprived area no longer feel quite so forgotten."
ReplyDeleteLet's hope it will regenerate Abbey Wood itself as well as Woolwich. Most of the Woolwich-Thamesmead-Plumtree area is a dump and a disgrace.