One thing that swiftly becomes apparent when looking at the recent London and South East draft RUS is how the proposed solutions to capacity problems are very different for the different lines, which all have their own particular features. In the lines examined so far there seems to be a positive way forward to overcome these problems in situations where they could become significant, although it does seem that the Brighton Main Line would face a relatively small capacity 'gap' that has no easy solutions.
We now look at the South West Main line which is basically the area covered by South West Trains except for the Windsor lines which we looked at last time. All these services pass through Wimbledon. These in turn can be conveniently divided into inner (suburban) services and an outer services (outer suburban and longer distance). They tend to terminate in the eastern side of Waterloo station.
There does not seem to be too much of an issue relating to inner suburban services. The committed plan is to increase these to 10-car trains which it believed will be adequate for many years to come. However, there is also the dire warning that, if it turns out that yet further capacity is needed , “it is emphasised that providing 12-car suburban capability at London Waterloo is complex and high cost.” One presumes they are talking about the plan to extend the platforms onto the concourse and relocate the circulating areas below the tracks, as is done at St Pancras.
For the outer suburban services and beyond there is no easy fix, as these are services which are already operated by 12-car trains. Unfortunately it is here that a significant “gap” has been identified. The phrase “running out of options” springs to mind. The RUS makes three suggestions - one of these it does not recommend, one requires further analysis and one is “potentially needed in the long term if other options cannot be identified.
The least favoured option is double-deck trains. Increased dwell times are cited but the main problem is the “extremely disruptive and expensive” need to regauge tunnels and raise bridges. There is also doubt expressed that it would actually do much to solve the problem. Certainly a double-deck 20 metre long carriage is going to have a fair portion of its space wasted in the end vestibules.
The next option is to eke out an extra four train paths per hour. This would bring capacity to 28tph, which is really taking it to the maximum. Just to achieve this is going to require the remodelling of Waterloo station throat and approaches and grade separation of Woking junction as well as other infrastructure changes. The obvious disadvantages are that there would now be no slack whatsoever in the timetable so recovery from even a minor disruption would be very difficult. There is no way you can build on this solution once implemented. However, the reason the RUS is lukewarm to this is that it only goes halfway to resolving the overcapacity issue. Even when implemented you would still have a problem.
The final suggestion is to run 16-car trains. In recent years, trains have tended not to exceed twelve carriages. An exception, of course, is Eurostar - but the requirements there are very, very different. Now that trains tend to be fixed formation there really is no opportunity to just add an extra carriage on an ad-hoc basis to make up a longer train to cover a particular heavily-loaded service. As a result, around twelve carriages has been the maximum that has until now made sense for domestic operation.
The idea of running sixteen carriages on a suburban or outer-suburban service is certainly not new. In the heyday of EPB stock, Southern region looked at running 16 carriages (4 units) on the Brighton line. There, it was not the power supply or the longer platforms that was the main problem - it was that it was realised that, as the signalling was designed with a maximum of 12 carriages in mind, it meant that a longer train could actually lead to further restrictions in capacity as the signalling and track layouts would no longer be optimised. Of course the layouts could have been redesigned, but this would then put further restrictions on all train movements regardless of the length of the actual train. The lesson learnt is that you need to run at least a fair proportion of your services at the maximum length that the track and signalling are designed for, otherwise, by allowing for longer trains than you are actually running, you could actually end up reducing overall capacity.
Sixteen carriage trains is not generally put forward as a solution to the railway capacity problem in the UK. However on the South West Main Line there probably three things in its favour:
i) The empty Eurostar terminal at Waterloo could very easily handle the long trains and the number of people arriving at the terminal at the same time would not pose a major problem as the infrastructure has been designed to handle this.
ii) The plan is to combine two eight carriage trains at an outer-suburban stations such as Basingstoke or Woking. If they run non-stop you only actually have to lengthen the platform at one or possibly two stations although the lengthening at those stations would be substantial – realistically we are talking about between 85 and 100 metres by the time we allow extra space for coupling and uncoupling.
iii) You would not suffer too much from the issue of limiting the signalling or track capacity. This is because this tends to be more of a problem when the trains are stationary and occupying track circuits for a relatively long time. A long train speeding along the line is not going to have that much of a negative impact.
The problem with the proposal for longer trains is that the long ex-international platforms at Waterloo are on the west side of the station whereas the trains involved currently terminate on the east side. What is needed is a flyover in the Clapham Junction area. The RUS does not go into any detail into this and as always the devil is in the detail. There are no suggestions as to exactly where the flyover would be or whether the trains would call at Clapham Junction.
In summary, for the longer distance services the RUS offers three options which are presented as the no-good solution, the short-term partial solution or the long-term proper solution. It emphasises that for the latter two “further analysis is required”. Of course there is nothing to stop the some of the infrastructure enhancements required for the partial-solution being implemented prior to the implementation of the long-term solution. The RUS gives the impression here that it really is a case of: “Here are the three options. We are convinced one of them is rubbish but we really are not yet sure which of the other two options is the better one”. Longer trains would be interesting and would, if introduced, undoubtedly cause new problems that had not been anticipated or fully appreciated, they may, however, prove one of the few solutions. If that turns out to be the case though, then one must feel sorry for the people with heavy luggage who are in the last carriage as they arrive at Waterloo - and then realise just how far they have to walk just to get to the main station concourse.
Is there room to substantially increase capacity on the inner suburban (longer, double decker, new tube line) in order to free up train paths for the long distance? So you'd help the long distance indirectly.
ReplyDeleteCrossrail 2 would help terminal capacity and that is more likely if HS2 goes ahead, is there any consideration of that or is that too far in the future for the study?
Alternatively, would a new tunnel (a la the proposed Brighton Main Line tunnel between the centre and Purley) between Waterloo and just past Surbiton be affordable in the long run if the problem is this bad?
Some of the stock on the SWML has featured 23m-long cars, which is not far off the 26m-long double-decker cars that you get in the US. Out of interest, what would be the work needed to accommodate these slightly longer cars?
ReplyDeleteEven if it was not possible to accommodate longer cars, firms like Bombardier already have double-decker trainsets with 15m increments.
I don't think length is so much of a problem here - reguaging is clearly the bigger issue.
What is the current guidance regarding guaging? Should new structures (bridges etc) be built over railways at a height that would permit double-decker services?
I agree that the main issue (double deckers) here is reguaging. This also applies to the on/off boarding speed. My experience of Paris RER double deckers is that even at peak times everybody gets on and off in a very quick and ordered manner. Oddly for national (city?) stereotypes Parisiens seem do have greater exectations of personal space than us Londoners.
ReplyDeleteRegarding squeezing in an extra 4tph I wonder if station dwell times have been looked at as on SWT these are incredibly slow and possibly eat into line capacity.
ReplyDeleteFor some unfathomable reason SWT is the only "southern" TOC which still utilises guards on inner-suburban services, but the whole operation is tedious. For starters they seem to have to get out on the platform and look both ways before they release the doors, and the door close sequence on Desiros is extremely slow. All this increases dwell times substantially on frequently-stopping services.
If SWT are intent on keeping guards, quite why the driver cannot release the doors, a much quicker process and as used by other TOCs and widespread throughout Europe, is beyond me.
Mark...
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilevel_rail_car
Here, Wikipedia suggests that network rail has to take double decker trains into account with new infrastructure projects.
nice work!
ReplyDeletedouble decker has been done at less than 26m (as in North America), sydney runs a massive fleet of 20m double deckers even on inner suburbans.
the issue with both 23m and 26m stock is not just length but "slew", as the gap between bogies increases (same problem for articulated stock BTW), as the carriage goes around a curve it overhangs more. i think the UK 23m stock is in some cases narrower than 20m stock to fit in gauge (ie making only 2+2 possible not 2+3, reducing capacity)
the real issue as highlighted is their dwell times - i think current modelling talks about a 30s dwell at intermediate stations. if one goes to double deckers the thinking is (and the 4DD experience) is that dwell times increase as the buried passenger takes longer to get out. this creates the same problem as 16 car trains, the longer dwell times eat up the capacity you are trying to create.
i don't think anyone has come up with an answer to this really hard problem of what happens after 12 cars (or 10x23m).
Platform length would be a big issue at Waterloo with 16 coach trains. It might be worth installing moving walkways there, if there is a space for them. It would not be so bad at Woking as the station exit would be in the middle rather than at one end. It would not be any worse than the walk up to the far end of the existing bay platform.
ReplyDeleteAnother problem with splitting and joining trains is that a delay on one branch will delay the join and hold up the other service as well. Even if all goes well, I could see dwell time at Woking being a problem with all the splitting and joining. Extra platforms might be needed.
Ideally, what is needed is a system that allows splitting and joining while on the move but I don't know if anything like that exists.
One idea to boost capacity, albeit only by a moderate amount, has not been mentioned: getting rid of first class. First class is a waste of space even when it is fully occupied, which it almost never is.
Could the currently unused viaduct built to take Eurostars from Waterloo to Wandsworth Road be rebuilt to run services onto the East side of the SWT lines?
ReplyDeleteI believe it could. The main box over the SWT lines could be retained with the line curving west of the existing alignment immediately afterwards and also rising over the wandsworth-victoria lines to rejoin SWT in the vicinty of Queenstown Road. Would require demolition of a substantial amount of Ingate place, which is mainly industrial units, but not much else.
Other ideas:
ReplyDelete6tph in the peaks through Wimbledon to/from Waterloo originate via Teddington. If, say, someone was planning on extending a certain tube line to Battersea and possibly onto Clapham Junction, could it not be projected further either under or over ground to New Malden, and then take over the lines to Shepperton and Twickenham via Teddington?
This would free up 6 train paths per hour in the peaks via Wimbledon and a further 6 paths into Waterloo on the Windsor lines. That's 12tph!
How much work would really be required to run services from the SW lines to Blackfriars/Thameslink via Wimbledon? Couldn't Chessington (Epsom?) services fairly easily be diverted? Could the longer distance services form part of the planned Thameslink portfolio (notwithstanding that they'd now be on the terminating platform side of Blackfriars)?
ReplyDeleteThere are two more sets of unused bridge supports at Blackfriars - more terminating platforms waiting to be built? After all, how many of those SWT commuters are planning to jump on the W&C at Waterloo anyway?
The Woking and "ex-Eurostar" flyovers are going to be needed anyway.
ReplyDeleteFor more capacity, the absurd 7-track bottleneck through Queenstown Road has got to go.
The low-number (suburban SW side) platforms @ Waterloo need lengthening, anyway, with a "minor" track-remodelling at the exit/throat on that side.
IF split/joins are going to be done at Woking, then an extra platform is going to be necessary - coupled with a rebuild for a flyover, it's going to be a difficult job.
Just throwing the thought randomly into the air...
ReplyDelete...but if double deck trains are a problem - why not have double deck train TRACKS stacked on top of the current services?
It works for motorways in some places and seems like it could be an easier way to increase track capacity than the modifications needed for "exotic" rolling stock.
For suburban services: double the number of doors and take out all the seats, just leave a few drop down ones. That would shorten dwell times (and remove the scrums in the vestibules).
ReplyDelete@IanVisits: Would that cause immense disruption for an incredibly long time at high cost when I'm sure there are better ways of dealing with the issue at the same level of disruption. Also, the line runs past a lot of homes, you're going to have privacy issues there.
ReplyDelete@Anon 12:45: While I am not someone who fails to understand the fewer seats = more space argument, removing all of them may be a bit to far. Also, the drop down seat idea to me is stupid. In a crammed carriage, do you ever see anyone standing and putting it up in order to create space? All they do is create space in an empty carriage. The new LO trains are the best compromise between seats and cattle trucks I think. Enough seats and loads of standing room for capacity.
On the subject of double decker trains increasing the dwell time. How about at major stations you have double decker platforms? That way the dwell time would be identical except at provincial stations where there aren't the line capacity problems.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@Anon 13:11
ReplyDeleteDouble decker platforms would require high-level doors. Unless all stations called at had double decker platforms then the trains would also require stairs. Stairs and doors seems likely to take up more space than just stairs, which means less space for the passengers.
I think the idea of releasing paths for long distance services by diverting inner services is a good one. Rather than via the Northern Line extension though I'd make Teddington/Kingston Loop the southern end of Chelney, which is planned to go to Wimbledon anyway. It would be yet another benefit that might actually see it built this century (although given how crap this country is at actually doing anything (rather than talking about it) I'm not holding my breath).
Personally, I don't think double deckers or signalling tweaks are the right way, but neither do I like 16 car splitters, thats just yuck.
ReplyDeleteThe problems really start just outside Surbiton where outer suburbans join the main line. Really it needs 6 tracks from there in. Adding two more tracks above ground is more possible on this line than most other lines, but still difficult (lots of trees and gardens disappear). I'd say that some sections are easier than others (Raynes Park to Clapham Junction looks doable by map and window view). Otherwise its a non-stop tunnel.
And London capacity? Obviously, a Crossrail destination would be ideal. But, I note that the slow lines Waterloo to Wimbledon are not at capacity yet. Thus 6 tracking New Malden to Clapham Junction would be sufficient to make a big difference. Run 24tph Waterloo-Vauxhall-Clapham on the existing 2 tracks, then using 4 tracks from Clapham onwards, 12tph inner suburban and 12tph outer suburban fast to New Malden/Surbiton. This leaves 2 tracks completely free for the expresses beyond Woking and has the major benefit of avoiding the current holdups where the outer suburbans join at Surbiton today.
@Paul, The idea of routing some to Blackfriars is a complete non-starter. Lots of flat junctions, longer distance and slower route. A key point is that this line is straight and fast, meaning that people live further out but still have short journey time expectations.
BTW, a Crossrail 2 route via Putney & Chelsea from Wimbledon won't help the line at all. Wimbledon to Waterloo today is only 15 mins, whereas it would take much much longer to get anywhere in London via Putney.
Much longer if you're destination is Waterloo.
ReplyDeleteIf your destination requires the tube then you have to take into account the time and inconvenience of changing, and the likelihood of getting a seat.
Is this worth the extra time - I don't know. People do though get on the Central Line at Ealing Broadway, Stratford, West Ham, etc rather than stay on the mainline, so it's possible.
@ stephenc, I am confused as to how 6-tracking from Surbiton to Clapham Junction is sufficient. Is it not 4-track all the way in to Waterloo, and wouldn't the pinchpoint be nearer the terminal? I am unclear where the bottlenecks actually are.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes surely Crossrail 2 can provide some relief if it went via Clapham Junction and took one of the SW routes?
I see from the previous post on the London Bridge rebuilding that the Charing Cross lines will have four platforms, although only two lines through Borough Market and east towards Bermondsey. Doubling the platforms significantly increases capacity. Could extra platforms be provided at Clapham Junction for outer-suburban services? There is space available, by eating into the yard sidings.
"stephenc" - "I note that the slow lines Waterloo to Wimbledon are not at capacity yet."
ReplyDeleteYou are joking, aren't you?
"The idea of routing some to Blackfriars is a complete non-starter. .....
a Crossrail 2 route via Putney & Chelsea from Wimbledon won't help .......it would take much much longer to get anywhere in London via Putney"
If I haven't got a seat by Wimbledon, which is quite a frequent occurence, I bale out and use the District or Thameslink to Blackfriars - maybe not much quicker but given the paucity of public transport between there and Waterloo, or the time wasted playing "Hunt the Boris Bike" at Waterloo and the inability to get rid of it again in the City, much less nerve-wracking
As for the other proposals, the Stewarts Lane flyover is too close to the viaduct carrying the Chatham Main Line over the SW Main Line (and, for obvous reasons, at he same level) to get a ramp either over or under it onto the existing flyover. Perhaps Chatham line trains could be diverted by Battersea Park (that line will have less to do when SLL/ELL trains are diverted to Clapham Junction) or using the original low-level lines? That would allow the Chatham Line flyover to be removed and a ramp might then fit.
Double deck? Why not - there are very few tunnels on the SWML - the first are beyond Petersfield and Micheldever, and the latter have already been cleared for "High Cube" container traffic.
As for the Long Trek from the back of a 16-car train at Waterloo, I'm sure the Eurostar terminal already has travelators. Anyway, an exit from Waterloo at the Westminster Bridge end would be very useful to people working in Westminster.
It seems the SWML in London is fast approaching capacity even if the moderately ambitious plans are put into motion immediately and even then, rail traffic will continue to increase (to a greater extent if we continue to push it for green reasons).
ReplyDeleteIt seems another set of tracks are needed in the long term from the centre to maybe as far as Woking. It would need to be underground for a lot of the distance and if it goes all the way down the line then it will clearly be for express services due to the cost of underground stations.
So what we're looking at is either a long express tunnel or getting as much track above ground as we can then descending into a crossrail/tube tunnel.
This is also where I think the either/or option for CR2 and NLX is a mistake. Extend both to Clapham then have the Northern Line covering one direction (Stains maybe) and Crossrail the other (Woking). Together that would suck up enough local traffic to relive the line for more long distance services.
Terminate most long distance trains at Clapham Junction or Wimbledon and extend the South London overground to Waterloo. Introduce a variable WIM-CLJ-WAT shuttle and have more tube services on the Wimbleware line that connect to Chelney.
ReplyDeleteIf SWT bothered to run more 8, 10 or 12 car trains the extra capacity would appear overnight. At weekends many trains are 4 cars and suffer overcrowding as bad as in the week.
ReplyDeleteI can't believe the over-capacity runs to Woking. The problem is from Wimbledon to the centre. There just has to be more tracks, either on stilts or in tunnels. Or we raise prices, or we build a new motorway.
ReplyDelete"The new LO trains are the best compromise between seats and cattle trucks I think."
ReplyDeleteThere is a lot of difference between doing that on urban routes, where most journeys are short, and doing it on suburban routes. I can't see it being acceptable on the semi-fast routes that go to Woking and beyond.
Have to agree with Chris M and the other commentator on this. Removing the Kingston loop and Shepperton branch from the line would free up some capacity. I'd plumb both ends into short extensions from the District line; Richmond-Twickenham and Wimbledon-New Maldon. It wouldn't require as much land or tunneling as some other suggestions, but would still provide relief.
ReplyDeleteThe CLR had aspirations to run to Shepperton long long ago from Sheperds Bush via Turnham Green, incidentally.
The District line from Richmond is already rammed in the mornings. Try again.
ReplyDeleteWell if you lop of the District's Wimbledon branch to CR2 then divert all previously Wimbledon bound trains west then you can up the tph on the Richmond branch. Combine that with an increased NLL frequency and that should compensate for the added passengers south of Richmond. Particularly if CR2 also takes half of the Stains traffic in an extension via Barnes.
ReplyDeleteA friend of mine lives in Woking ...
ReplyDeleteHe says that about once, or, if lucky, twice a MONTH he gets a seat inbound from there .....
If vertical clearances were adapted, something like the Omneo from Bombardier might fit when built with a suitably narrow body: http://bombardier.com/en/transportation/products-services/rail-vehicles/commuter-and-regional-trains/double-deck-electric-multiple-units/omneo-product-platform# . But "just" arrangind vertical clearances would be a massive undertaking.
ReplyDelete@Anonymous 18.13, I agree, we need an express tunnel, which even from Surbiton can provide significant relief. This tunnel could rise on the northern (Windsor) side around Battersea and then use Eurostar tracks to the long platforms at Waterloo.
ReplyDeleteClapham Junc needs a major rethink, and a rebuild could also provide two more platforms on the SWML, which will increase throughput.
Crossrail has to be part of the solution, and if that emerged at Clapham Junction it would provide more capacity from Battersea and Waterloo approaches.
@ Ben, much as though I like the idea of extending the District to the Shepperton lines, it would not be easy. You'd need to tunnel Kew to Twickenham and from Wimbledon Park to west of New Malden, with stations underground.
ReplyDeleteIt's not really an option if the District is already at a capacity at Richmond, with both routes then converging on Earl's Court. An improved North London Line service may help, but not by much.
It may be a goer if Crossrail 2 or a new Heathrow line took in Richmond...
I commute in each day from Farnborough to Waterloo and get a seat each day, whatever time of peak I travel. The 0758 ex Farnborough (0809 ex Woking) is only 8 car and leaves Woking with many seats (albeit the middle of 3 on a class 450) so there still simpler extensions to 12 car to be had in the short term. Many evening peak trains are still 8 car rather than 12.
ReplyDeleteOn a different point it is interesting that the recent footbridge replacement at Farnborough station has resulted in a much higher clearance than before, maybe to safeguard any future needs.
One earlier comment suggest gauge clearance for W10 is relevant to DD trains. I don't think it makes much difference at all really, at the centre line W10 is only 6" (approx) higher than a normal carriage. W10 is more about making room for the corners of the boxes.
ReplyDeleteThe DfT report on double decker trains a few years ago reckoned that far more work was needed for a useful DD passengr train assuming existing constraints on length of vehicle.
My personal suggestions for the pot are to build a short tunnel between Euston and Waterloo, and divert the suburbans services down that. If build to Crossrail standards, that removes ~24tph at least from the terminals.
ReplyDeleteExtend the tunnels to Clapham Junction & remove the Eurostar flyover, and that's effectively 3 extra tracks you've just added to Waterloo.
The Northern Line extension has to go via Vauxhall, and take a more meandering route down the lines to Clapham Junction. Stations at Vauxhall, Nine Elms, Battersea Park, Battersea Central and Clapham Junction would give much greater coverage to the area, and importantly, would let you close the mainline platforms at Queenstown Road and Vauxhall - further increasing capacity between Clapham Junction & Waterloo.
Croassrail 2 as a NR line to Clapham Junction also makes far more sense than Wimbledon, and that then gives you three lines in tunnel at Clapham Junction to start taking over services from.
6-tracking isn't so difficult as it might appear. It should start at Hampton Court Jn, as this is where the Hampton Court and Guildford via Cobham trains join the main line. Rebuild Surbiton station with the car park on top of the station, which gives you new space alongside. Berrylands - viaduct alongside existing line, over the sewage works. New Malden - remove the unused mainline platforms, and there's wide footpath space to the west of the embankment as far as Raynes Park, where you can instantly create capacity by looping the Epsom line platforms back on to the slow line. Wimbledon - tunnel under, as has been proposed for a long time. At Earlsfield there is already a 5th track and, again, redundant mainline platforms. Just a bit of a squeeze into Clapham, some demolition would be necessary, or short tunnel into open low-level platform between south-west and Windsor lines. Then Crossrail bites the bullet, gets beyond Heathrow and takes over the Waterloo-Reading line service (via a different route from the over-complicated Staines High St). Then you've got two free tracks all the way from Clapham into Waterloo International.
ReplyDeleteGiven the amount of Crossrail trains that are currently planned to terminate at Paddington, I don't understand why they don't build a bridge over the GWML fast lines and run a load of trains through Acton Central. Run some trains on through Feltham & Staines to Windsor (to remove Windsor trains from the Waterloo approach), some trains on through Richmond to Shepperton (to remove Shepperton services) and some trains round through Richmond & Kingston to terminate at New Malden (which removes Kingston loop services).
ReplyDeleteDivert NLL services from Richmond to Kew Bridge and terminate at Barnes station, which removes all Hounslow loop line services. This also frees up track capacity into Richmond to share with District line services (which I gather was one reason Crossrail didn't run into Richmond to start with).
Suddenly there's a lot more track capacity into Waterloo for extra trains, which combined with 6-tracking from Clapham Junction to...say Surbiton as mentioned gives a lot more capacity for SWML services.
@ Drew, did the Crossrail planning ever consider an extension from Old Oak to Acton Central? This would bring a number of potential routes into play.
ReplyDeleteFor instance, taking Crossrail to Richmond would relieve the District Line there, which could allow the District to be extended on to the Shepperton Loop. In effect, this is only extending the services that would otherwise turn back at Paddington, which themselves may now extend to a proposed station at Kensal Rise:
http://londonreconnections.blogspot.com/search/label/kensal%20rise
I don't know how practical it is to extend Crossrail further, as it would all need to be wired... unless it became the new Heathrow route, branching off from Hounslow.
@timbeau, Yes I'm serious. The slow lines from Clapham to Waterloo are not at capacity. The current timetable shows 18tph in morning peak, 16tph off-peak. And they are 8 cars at the most. The maximum sensible capacity would be 24tph and 12 cars. Therefore, there is lots of spare capacity (by my maths, its currently at 50% of the maximum capacity).
ReplyDeleteThe capacity problem is more on the fast 2 tracks into Waterloo. Those tracks have to cope with both long-distance (fast to Woking and beyond, eg Portsmouth and Southampton) and outer-suburban (those that are slow to Surbiton, then change to the fast tracks)
What I propose would be to get the maximum use of Waterloo to Clapham by running 24tph of 12 cars. Half of those 24tph would then continue slow to Earlsfield-Wimbledon-Raynes Park-... and half of which run fast (on 2 new tracks) to at least Raynes Park (and probably as far as New Malden or Surbiton). Thats why 6 tracking just New Malden to Clapham can have a big impact.
This solution gains 6tph into Waterloo and stops the conflicting movements at Surbiton, increasing the reliability of the mainline (and therefore potentially its capacity slightly too). The move from 8 cars to 12 cars soaks up the rest.
Having said all that, a Crossrail 2 that went to Clapham (not Chelsea/Putney) would have an even bigger impact.
@ Anon 08:09
ReplyDeleteApparently Crossrail did consider (and had it in the original plans) for Crossrail to run via Acton Central, Richmond and terminate at Kingston. The District line branch to Richmond would of then been withdrawn as I understand it.
The proposal got dropped due to local opposition to Richmond losing District line access, and insufficient ROI.
However, if you consider Crossrail as reliving congestion into Waterloo, then I'm sure the ROI improves especially if they cater for several Crossrail routes in the area.
All right - as remarked above High Cube-accessible tunnels don't help much, but my main point was that there are no tunnels AT ALL until after Basingstoke/Guildford
ReplyDeleteThere was a plan to extend Crossrail to Norbiton via Richmond. As I understand it, it foundered not because Richmond would lose the District Line (which it does anyway, every time the NLL sneezes) - Crossrail would get Richmondites to central London much more quickly. The problem was demolition of very expensive real estate to fit in a flyover at Richmond, plus the impossibility of fitting any more trains on the double track section between there and Twickenham. For Kingstonians, acquiring a circuitous route to central London at the expense of the existing direct route to Waterloo was unattractive.
(Incidentally, Norbiton is not a huge traffic generator - it was chosen as the terminus because, unlike Kingston, there is room to put a reversing siding between the running lines, (Cf Rayners Lane)
Mr jrt - with you on the Euston-Waterloo tunnel - I wonder, with HS2 at Euston, whether this has a better chance of getting built than Chelsea-Hackney? With a shorter tunnel length and far fewer underground tunnels it might have a better cost-benefit ratio than Chelney.
ReplyDelete@Ben
ReplyDeleteWaterloo-Euston wouldn't help track capacity on the main lines or the tube. CHL would at least help to relieve several tube lines and serve areas with no tube coverage at present. So although CHL is more expensive, it has a better business case than simply relieving platforms at two stations, one of which is going to have a huge rebuild anyway.
It depends, doesn't it. CR3 would relieve the Northern Line's CX branch. It would relieve the Victoria line for Euston-Victoria flows (by virtue of serving both Vauxhall & Clapham Junction).
ReplyDeleteIt'd free up platform capacity at both stations, permitting more efficient use to be made of the existing platforms.
It may not serve new locations, but then CR2 only does on one route option, and then it's only a single new stop on Kings Road, Chelsea.
@ timbeau, I am surprised about the supposed problem extending Crossrail to Richmond and on. There appears to be enough space for an underpass for the Down lines from Kew Gardens to go beneath the Windsor line from North Sheen. And the train paths should be available as either Crossrail or the District would take over some of the existing paths.
ReplyDeleteMy ha'porth:
ReplyDeleteFirst make sure you're making best use of the capacity you've got:
sort out the dwell time issue - SWT trains always seem terribly slow at this (and if you expect the passengers to hurry along, don't keep them waiting while you think about opening the doors...). Ensure that the signalling can make best use of the tracks there are, and take out the bottlenecks (the missing track through Vauxhall & Queenstown Road, remaining flat junctions).
Then go for longer trains, and do it properly: rebuild Waterloo for 12*20m coaches on the inner suburban (for flexibility, and to get it done), and 16 or 18*20m or 15*23m on the outer area, platforms. Down the line, for long trains, you need to do the 5-10 main stations for >12*20 trains, at least to Southampton (if not Bournemouth), with splitting as required.
But in the long term there's going to be a point at which more tracks are the only answer - which means either 6 tracking the main line (from Hampton Court Junction (Surbiton) or New Malden in), and/or a new railway (CrossRail N?)
As we seem to be spending countless millions replacing all the bridges on a 30mile stretch of the M1 (and it's a lot of bridges/gantreys! Why can we find some money to raise the bridges here to run double decker carages. As for the problem with increased dwell times due to people blocking the doors, well sureley we can design the entrances around this (like we did with the old route master - but with a BIG door)
ReplyDeleteI know it's not going to happen overnight, but in the long run it seems stupid not to start.....
And as for the M1 bridges it dose seem mad that we are demolishing perfectly good bridges to widen it by one lane in each direction. It would seem more cost effective to actually widen the bridges even more so that there is more space in the future to add extra junction or car pool lanes etc) without having to demolish them all again!
@Anon 14:27
ReplyDeleteYes it is important to use the capacity we've got, however that will surely run out and it would be easier to close sections for upgrade works if we have redundant capacity to fall back on. So oddly, it might be better if we build a second set of express tracks and then have a major upgrade programme on the SWML to convert it to Crossrail. The same logic is behind building Crossrail and THEN doing the central line upgrade. Rather than upgrading the central line with huge disruption, waiting a few years for that extra capacity to go and then building Crossrail.
Stephenc - actually I agree: 24tph*12 car should be possible but with the current signalling and stations we are stuck with about 16*8. What I meant was that the line ios running at its present capacity.
ReplyDeleteSome improvemenmt in frequency might be possible if a more sensible trade-off were to be made between frequency and puntuality. (If you run every ten minutes, who cares (or indeed notices) if all trains are ten minutes late.
@timbeau: people who were on the train while it became delayed.
ReplyDeleteOOOPs - that second linkie should have been
ReplyDeletehttp://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23953766-commuters-face-delay-on-oyster-top-up.do
I can't see any changes in the next 10-20 years happening apart from the odd platform extension. All Network Rail seem interested in are retail developments - notice how quick work on this is progressing at Waterloo!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous
ReplyDeleteNR (not SWT) are actually demolishing existing retail outlets at Waterloo to create moere space on the concourse (and possibly eventually extend the platforms - the reverse of what happened at Victoria a cuople of decades ago where it seesm you have to walk half the way to Clapham Junction to reach the trains!
waterloo will, eventually, get new shops at meazzanine level, but not much has happened there.
However, when SWT have a free hand, as at Kingston, retail outlets have certainly been prioritised over passenger access - which is why there is now a coffee shop obstructing the original main entrance and passengers have to negotiate the single remaining one.
Could a TOC sell tickets which include coffee as standard, one having to opt out to just pay for
ReplyDeletetransport?
@Anon 12:24
ReplyDeleteFirst Class tickets on First Great Western include a "free" (i.e. included in the price of the ticket) tea or coffee and newspaper iirc. I don't think you can opt out of the non-travel portion though.
The potential to make the Waterloo international station a through station exists and at present there is relatively little in the way of an elevated chord line to connect from the East end of WAE station to the South end of the new Blackfriars.via tracks elevated above the WAE-CHX viaduct
ReplyDeleteAt Clapham there is a short length through Wandsworth Town (perhaps an elevated pair of tracks above the viaduct) which would need to find space to connect 2 extra tracks through to the Putney flyover, and connect the LOROL service that terminates at Platform 2 (and potentially platform 1 to serve East Putney and potentially Wimbledon, and at the Eastern end a substantial distance can be delivered through land currently used for sidings. This would offer an extended LOROL service to Wimbledon and capacity to handle the huge demand to go to & from Putney on SWT stopping services. This would also offer the option to fit some SWT paths in the space between District Line services which arises through the need to fit in Richmond and Ealing Broadway, and enhanced by the termination of some services at Parsons Green or provision for this at East Putney.
Its been two weeks to the day without a new post!
ReplyDeleteIs everybody ok or is there just no news about?
Not much happening that we haven't talked about already.
ReplyDeleteThat said - photos of Canary Wharf now up, and another couple of posts coming as well. So this week is busy!