Monday, 2 May 2011

Extending the DLR


The last time we addressed this subject was in reference to the speculative DLR Horizon 2020 report. Now, however, TfL have - without any accompanying publicity - put up a new map of potential DLR extensions. Tantalisingly, there is no comment on the proposals, which of course provides a golden opportunity for speculation.

Some of the proposals were, in some sense of the word, already "official." Others were known about but were little more than rumours and others are a bit of a surprise. You can see for yourself on the map above what the proposals are. Here is a bit of background to them.

Dagenham Dock extension

It is no surprise that this is present. The preparatory work has been done for this right up to the point of applying for a Transport and Works Act order. This government is talking about making the procedure simpler for getting major projects to happen so there may be some rejigging with the accompanying paperwork and procedural process but it should get easier not harder.

The crux is that this extension depends on a rational reason to develop it. That reason would likely be housing, with developer contributions to the extension's construction implicit. This scheme is acknowledged as critical to the redevelopment of the area and without it it seems likely that redevelopment won't happen. The converse, however, is also true – if there is no current appetite for redevelopment then the scheme won't happen.

Ultimately though, the Mayor's cancellation of this project in the recession was really just a bit of posturing. Just about everyone thinks it will happen one day but no-one knows when.

Double tracking between Bow Church and Stratford

This is almost a no-brainer but this is the first time it has been referred to in a DLR document although Modern Railways did mention it a couple of years ago. The real surprise is that this wasn't included as part of the Crossrail works, given that the DLR track is being diverted anyway to enable the Crossrail Pudding Mill Lane portal to be built. One suspects that the idea behind this is not an increase of frequency, but an aid to reliability and enabling the system to recover from disruption quicker.

An Extension to Victoria

Again this has been reported by Modern Railways which normally has reliable sources. This desire to extend westward started with considerations such as the desire to balance the eastern and western parts of the DLR. With most trains terminating at Bank, this was rapidly becoming a critical part of the system affecting the system's overall capacity. To get a frequency of every two minutes or less at Bank one really needs to make it a through station, although of course this potentially just shifts the problem further down the line.

A further desire was to get to Charing Cross, with the bonus of being able to use the former Jubilee line platforms at next to no cost instead of the hundreds of millions of pounds now needed for new underground platforms. One suspects that the DLR is counting on the fact that no-one these days wants new lines to have “tube” sized tunnels and trains, and the difficulties of finding a new route through the existing spaghetti of underground services and foundations means that the DLR has the advantage as it can happily cope with tight curves and severe gradients.

It will be interesting to see the rational behind going to Victoria and whether the analysis shows this as solving a problem or creating one. If it ever happens and Chelsea-Hackney also materialised, then Victoria is going to become a very busy underground station indeed.

An extension from City Thameslink (itself on the line of the Victoria extension) to Euston and St Pancras

As far as I am aware this idea is completely new. The word that hits you between the eyes here is “opportunism”. With the Central London Tram just about dead as an idea, we have here the alternative and arguably better solution to the problem of capacity on the Aldwych-Holborn-Euston corridor. You can almost feel that someone is already itching to propose a further branch to Camden Town.

The need to go to Euston is no doubt fuelled by the hope of riding on the coat tails of HS2. The clever bit is to go on to St. Pancras, as the need for a good convenient link between Euston (HS2) and St Pancras that can actually cope with the level of future traffic seen as a critical part of the HS2 proposal. This in turn probably means that this part of the route needs to be near the surface, or even elevated to fulfil this requirement. The actual location on the map of the terminus at St Pancras is in the top north-western corner, which is identical to that already suggested for a rapid people system between the two main railway terminii. This is analogous to the idea of having the DLR go between Stratford domestic and International. You have got to put something in place anyway so why not just extend the DLR to do it?

Southwards from Lewisham to Catford and Forest Hill

The idea of going to Catford is a relatively old one (it appeared in, but also predates, Horizon 2020). Indeed if it weren't for the difficultly of crossing the A20 just south of Lewisham station it would probably have been done by now, as Catford is an obvious choice and it wouldn't be too difficult to make the land available. It would also provide new journey opportunities and numerous benefits to the Hayes line and the Catford loop. However crossing the A20 is a major challenge that either involves massive engineering work at Lewisham and abandoning the current DLR infrastructure or diverting the A20.

Realistically I suspect that the latter would only happen as part of a bigger scheme to deal with the traffic problem in Lewisham, but that doesn't mean to say it won't happen one day. The surprise is the idea of going on to Forest Hill. It is easy to see the benefits of providing a link to this busy hub, but the area between Catford and Forest Hill is a residential area that is very built up. A solution at ground level or involving a viaduct does not seem very attractive whereas a tunnel would be very expensive.

Overall, If a significant portion of these ideas were to happen, it would bring the DLR much more into the core of providing transport in London. Indeed, it can be argued that the “Docklands Light Railway” is becoming more and more inappropriate as a name. Indeed although it may have started out as the perceived “cheap option” in transport terms, the DLR is rapidly moving beyond that tag. This, alongside expansions like those listed above, will increasingly mean the DLR has to face up to consequences of its growing complexity - from identifying the lines clearly to the average user, to providing sufficient depots to enable the system to work reliably and have sufficient resilience to keep functioning.

The bigger the DLR gets, the more people rely on it and the more unacceptable a breakdown in service becomes. If any of the these proposals actually happen, then we really will have to change he way we think about the DLR.

85 comments:

  1. Presumably Greenwich Council's "pie in the sky" proposal to extend the DLR to Kidbrooke is totally dead as well.

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  2. Was it ever really alive in anything other than a couple of Councillor's imaginations?

    The Euston/St Pancras connection is an interesting one. I'd not thought about how the DLR might be leverage into the HS2 support proposals but it makes sense.

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  3. I think an advantage of the DLR link, from a HS2 perspective is that it can dump a lot of passengers directly onto the Central Line without clogging up the intermediate tube lines with interchange traffic.

    Holborn is also a bit of a hotel hotbed, so there are advantages to a direct link between the two area.

    It would be curious to ponder the possibility of widening the Aldwych tunnels to create a loop/turnaround facility at that point of the network for flexibility - costs permitting.

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  4. Extending to St Pancras - for a non-industry person, this is a bit of a welcome surprise.

    I currently live in Hitchin and commute to Canary Wharf daily. However, we're moving house south of the river specifically because of the time/hassle/regularity of the extended system breaking down somewhere on the route (Hitchin->KX->Bank/L Bridge->C Wharf).

    As the OP said, the DLR would need to be more reliable, but by extending to St Pancras you would open up Herts, Beds and Cambs "properly" to Canary Wharf rather than via the current horrible set of interchanges.

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  5. Many thanks for this article.
    The idea of extending to Forest Hill (where I live) would address significant overcrowding predicted for the next 20 years, but it is the most expensive way of doing this, if it were to be the only section of tunnel (and viaduct would be virtually impossible without demolition of many houses).

    A better terminus for the DLR beyond Catford is around Bell Green (moving Lower Sydenham station up the Hayes Line). This would attract some of the passengers from Forest Hill and Sydenham, but the journey for many from Bell Green to Canary Wharf would still be faster on the ELL via Canada Water.

    But where does this leave the options for Bakerloo Line southern extension, where some of the proposals take exactly the same route between Lewisham and Catford? There really should not be the demand for two high frequency services running on this section of the Pool River.

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  6. Paul Copley said...
    "extending to St Pancras you would open up Herts, Beds and Cambs "properly" to Canary Wharf rather than via the current horrible set of interchanges."

    Extending to City Thamelink alone would do that for you. I predict a three - platform station for a higher turnaround capacity than any of the present termini and keeping open options for two further western extensions.

    You read it here first!

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  7. Interesting that the central London extensions are, they do not address the big issue of overcrowding to get away from London Bridge.

    Already the Jubilee line for Canary Wharf is arriving at London Bridge with full trains that LB passengers may watch 2 or 3 go by before they can get on. Using Canada Water is worse.

    Many already walk to Bank to catch the DLR as it can often be quicker but this proposal will probably mean it will become very difficult to get on a DLR at Bank.

    Thameslink will probably bring even more customers to London Bridge and create more congestion.

    So perhaps an extension of the DLR to London Bridge to reduce congestion there would be more appropriate?

    Victoria is probably an unnecessary extension as most City/Canary Wharf customers would use London Bridge as most services into Victoria have alternative trains to London Bridge from the same originating stations. Plus you don't have to travel half way across London to travel back again.

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  8. t33, you need to remember that Crossrail is part of the equation too.

    People who currently use the Jubilee to get to west and north London will take Crossrail instead from Canary Wharf when it opens.

    Additionally, Crossrail should take a sizeable portion of traffic away from the DLR also because of its speed and the fact it serves more locations.

    This should take some pressure away from London Bridge.

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  9. @t33 extending the DLR to City ThamesLink would allow some relief from London Bridge for those coming in on the Brighton-Bedford line that stops at both stations with a alternate direct link to Canary Wharf.

    A direct link from the east into St Pancras / HS2 would be very welcome indeed.

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  10. I believe all extensions proposed here would drastically aid the DLR in promoting its London status.
    What is great to see is 2 extensions into c.london but as the euston route comes off the victoria branch, surely to get enough capacity to both destinations would mean closing tower gateway?
    strange there is no talk from tfl but maybe there will be something soon...

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  11. @Anon, I believe there's provision on the Bank branch for a Tower Hill station; a section of track that's flat which was designed for a station but never built because of cost.

    If it was felt that capacity could be shifted further into London and thus Tower Gateway should close, that opportunity would still be there.

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  12. Greenwich commissioned a report early last year (via a body called the Eltham Regeneration Agency) about extending the DLR to Eltham. So far, there's no sign of the report.

    It's widely suspected to have been a pre-election stunt.

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  13. The real surprise is that this wasn't included as part of the Crossrail works, given that the DLR track is being diverted anyway to enable the Crossrail Pudding Mill Lane portal to be built.

    The Crossrail works cover barely half the length of the single track section. They'd need to extend the scope of the work by some distance at both ends to completely eliminate the single track section, possibly including some major demolition and/or taking over NR tracks.

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  14. As the OP said, the DLR would need to be more reliable, but by extending to St Pancras you would open up Herts, Beds and Cambs "properly" to Canary Wharf rather than via the current horrible set of interchanges.

    Once the Thameslink Programme and Crossrail are complete, you'd have a one-change journey at Farringdon from Hitchin.

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  15. This all looks like good stuff, although I see the Woolwich branch remains stubbornly unextended into poorly served SE London. Glad as ever to have moved from Bexley to Lewisham!

    Speaking of Lewisham, not sure if people here are aware of the Lewisham Gateway proposals (ironically most clearly explained by this protest site)? These are firmly on a very far back back-burner at the moment but nevertheless exist as a general aspiration and do basically fall into the 'need to move the A20' part of the Lewisham DLR extension plans. Perhaps TfL have this (when it finally gets revived) in mind as a time to start working on that extension?

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  16. Given the problems introduced by recent upgrades, is there really the competency to introduce further over-arching changes?

    It all looks good but I don't really look forward to the several years of disruption that it will introduce. I just want a line that works 7 days in the week.

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  17. Edited the centre of Tube map :) - see image:

    tinyurl.com/DlrExt

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  18. The Lewisham extension would be put to better use and would be cheaper if it were to be extended to Bromley North over mostly existing infrastructure. This would eradicate the current patchy South Eastern service between Lewisham and Bromley and provide a much needed link to Docklands from SE London beyond Lewisham.

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  19. My main wonder is whether the existing DLR trains would have sufficient capacity for the central London traffic? It's also getting a very long way to even Poplar depot. When a train sat down near East India a few months back they had to wait several hours before they could move it and even then they had to take it back to Beckton at walking pace (it took them over 10 minutes to get from Cyprus to Gallions Reach).

    That said this will reduce the pressure on the Jubilee interchange at Canning Town, which is currently the best route from the Beckon and Woolwich branches to most places in west, central or north-west London that aren't on the Central or Northern Lines (and some that are).

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  20. ANON 10:11

    Crossrail will reduce some of the congestion at London Bridge as users north of Tottenham Court Road could swap trains. However it appears to me that the main squeeze comes from the commuters for Canary Wharf getting off SWT trains at Waterloo and taking to the Jubilee Line.

    There is no plan to reduce this crowding - I think it unlikely that any would move to the overcrowded Drain and change at Bank for Crossrail.

    It would be interesting if Tower Gateway could be extended to London Bridge overground but I suspect there may be too many buildings in the way.

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  21. With regard to Catford - Forest Hill, I'd have thought this would be a prime opportunity to rediscover our roots and return to cut-and-cover: Big wide road connecting the two, just aching to be rebuilt with DLR under the surface...

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  22. @T33

    Above ground from Tower Gateway to pretty much anywhere is a non-starter without lots of very expensive demolition.
    Going to London Bridge would also require a new bridge over the river, which wouldn't come cheap. I can't see anybody agreeing to a viaduct over or right by the Tower of London either.

    Abandoning the current Tower Gateway station is I think going to be the only way that branch will be extended. A ground-level station leading onto a street tramway section would be good, but completely infeasible with the bottom-contact third rial power supply. Conversion of the entire network to OHLE would be a massive undertaking (and I don't know whether there would be clearance issues in the tunnels).

    An underground station is the only other option. This gives the potential for a station on the Bank branch and a proper interchange with Tower Hill station, but would be pricey.

    The best option would probably be a direct link from the South Bermondsey area to Canary Wharf that didn't go via Canada Water. This would mean that London Bridge traffic would be separated from the Waterloo traffic. To help traffic from the direction you might as well continue via North Greenwich to meet the DLR between Canning Town and West Silvertown, giving a direct Canary Wharf to City Airport link. This would reduce the pressure on Canning Town as an interchange and mean that people from City Airport wouldn't have to crowd onto the same trains as ex-Stratford passengers.

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  23. Are there any more details of the proposed people mover between St Pancras and Euston? It's hard to see a surface route for this that doesn't involve major demolitions; but the optimal one would seem to be just to the South of Phoenix Road landing up at the former construction area west of St Pancras.

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  24. (Best solution, if you ask me, would be to flatten Somers Town between Polygon Road and Doric Way/British Library and divert the WCML/HS2 to rebuild Euston on the West side of St Pancras with through tracks to Thameslink and HS1 in situ, then sell the former Euston site for redevelopment to pay for it.

    Politically challenging though I reckon.)

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  25. Could someone explain this double-tracking business?

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  26. @anon at 1513
    Double-tracking is when there's currently only a single track and you lay another one next to it.

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  27. Surely anything serving the Lewisham - Bromley corridor is best left for a Bakerloo Line extension? You could take it to Camberwell, New Cross, Lewisham and then down via Catford to Bromley - you could even put in a loop to connect the different stations.

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  28. Victoria & Euston are alternatives to each other (see Central London Sub Regional Transport Plan, if it's online anywhere...)

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  29. @Binny

    The Catford proposal would seem to solve the "how to serve Lewisham to Catford" problem with running the Bakerloo in tunnel via Peckham to Catford and from thence to Hayes, which I think is the front-running proposal at present.

    See - http://londonreconnections.blogspot.com/2010/09/bakerloo-extension-report-to-lewisham.html

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  30. Disappointed there is no combined Aldwych/Temple station included on the map. I am still holding out hope for Aldwych station surface buildings to get re-used ;-)

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  31. We've only just got 3 cars - going down to forest hill would need 4 cars to ensure they can cram us on! Besides - how on earth would Bank cope? Instead of increasing the number of escalators all they have done is repair the existing ones. It's taken months and month and we will still be left with one up and one down when they have finished!

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  32. *sigh* Why do people keep trying to turn the DLR into a tube train when you have a solution already - funnily enough, called a tube train!

    9-car DLR stock handles 284 passengers, S7 handles 268 passengers, but the S8 handles 306 passengers, (and for completeness, a car of 378 holds ~85 passengers I think, so a 4-car would be ~340 passengers and a 8-car would be a monstrous ~680 passengers).

    Now combine those trains with the signalling planned for the SSL that'll give 32tph, and problem solved for the time being.

    If there's so much demand between Bank and Poplar, then it needs to be upgraded.

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  33. @ paul details on people mover between euston and St Pancras http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110131042819/http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/proposedroute/apm/

    Where is the benefit of the euston option for HS2? For most in the DLR catchment area crossrail --> old oak common would be quicker than DLR to Euston.

    Regarding the victoria option, are the old jubilee tunnels sufficient size for DLR?

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  34. sorry above link doesnt work - try this page, then open the archive link:

    http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/proposedroute/apm/

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  35. @Anon

    No, the tunnels aren't big enough as for a start they lack the evacuation walkway, so would need to be completely re-bored. The Charing Cross station platforms and passageways are pretty much the only savings you'd get.

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  36. I think what is really need in addition to these suggestions:

    1. New DLR line extending Woolwich Arsenal branch to O2/Dome, then across the river to Canary Wharf and again across the river to Rotherhithe peninsula, and then on to South Bermondsey (Woolwich Arsenal -> North Greenwich / O2 -> Heron Quays -> new station near Hilton hotel -> Surrey Quays -> South Bermondsey). This can become a second "main-line" of DLR in the future (and large chunks can be built on the surface).

    2. Connection between St Pancras and Victoria branches - to run a brand new DLR service entirely in Central London (St Pancras -> Euston -> Holborn -> Charing Cross -> Green Park -> Victoria).

    3. Fleet Street or Aldwych station.

    4. Rename City Thameslink station to Ludgate Hill (or at least name DLR part of the station like that).

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  37. As to the naming issue as the DLR extends ever further beyond 'Docklands', don't we simply re-christen it the DRIVERLESS Light Railway, sit back and watch Bob Crow (for whom the word 'driverless' is something of a red rag) pop a vein or two :-)

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  38. Victoria: definitely use the old fleet line tunnels to get to Charing X but going to Victoria would just be duplication of existing lines. Instead, bridge the gap across town with CX- Green Park - Hyde Park - Marble Arch - Paddington.

    Catford: yes, great idea, but why not take over the whole Hayes line - it would alleviate National Rail capacity on London terminals. There could even be some overlap with that other light rail system, the Croydon tram - trams to Canary Wharf? DLR to Wimbledon?

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  39. @anon at 2114
    Thanks for the link - anyone else who wants it have a go with this - http://bit.ly/juGjix

    Looking at it in depth, the cut and cover options look painfully unattractive during construction, and it's hard to see how a bidirectional DLR sized railway could squeeze into the suggested elevated alignment depicted as a monorail.

    I can't imagine residents of Phoenix Road or Polygon Road being thrilled with any of the options, though all are IMO far better value than the cable car scheme or for a closer priced comparison, the now-shelved £75m upgrade of Baker Street station.

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  40. Repaidtransitman3 May 2011 at 01:50

    Can't see how the shorter DLR trains could carry near as much as much longer tube trains. Plus, any new train route in central London will be swamped with passengers, so make it DLR will be immediately regretted. Best to make it a tube train, as suggested in these comments, as the capacity & speed are so much more. This should include the Bank to Poplar to Canning Town section.

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  41. Repaidtransitman3 May 2011 at 01:50

    Can't see how the shorter DLR trains could carry near as much as much longer tube trains. Plus, any new train route in central London will be swamped with passengers, so make it DLR will be immediately regretted. Best to make it a tube train, as suggested in these comments, as the capacity & speed are so much more. This should include the Bank to Poplar to Canning Town section.

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  42. Hang on. A three-car (=three articulated units coupled together) DLR train is 84m long. That's barely shorter than a C-stock, which is 90m. And there's no speed advantage - DLR stock and LU stock are both capable of a nominal 100km/h, but limited to lower speeds in practice on underground central London routes.

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  43. The double-track Bow-church to Stratford could STILL be done as part of X-rail!
    AND - you would "just" need to cantilever half-a-track over the S. edge of the existing embankment - taking over any ex-GER tracks is not a starter, given traffic volumes.

    Dagenham Dock - well, does Boris do anything other than "posture"?

    Victoria ALREADY IS a "very busy UndrgrounD station indeed". But, as said elsewhere Vic/Euston are ALTERNATIVES, and I would have tyhought the Euston/St.P/KX alternative was the obvious one to go for.
    Talking of which, there is also the wasted "Drain" - which SHOULD, in an ideal world, with money-resources, extend at the "top" end to Liverpool Street and then a loop, with two-track platform (for overlays/delays) at the new Shoreditch, whilst at the "bottom" end, it should link Waterloo with Victoria ....

    Catford-Forest Hill: Where would you put it, and what happens to the Lewisham-Hayes services, or do we have Newcastle-Metro style dual running?

    I note that the poor old Lea Valley gets left out AGAIN.
    The quickest way from Walthamstow or Chingford or N. Leyton to Stratford or Canary Wharf is STILL ... cycling. The buses are hopeless, jammed, and don't go direct, and the half-hourly Tott. Hale-Stratford "service" is one of the slowest in the country - and usually late, as well.

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  44. "greg tingey said...
    The quickest way from Walthamstow or Chingford or N. Leyton to Stratford or Canary Wharf is "

    changing trains between Hackney Downs and Hackney Central.

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  45. I'm sad that there still seems to be no consideration of extending transport to Camberwell - it would make a great routing for the DLR if they extended it South of London Bridge through Elephant and then on to Camberwell and other stations before terminating at Catford which I think track-wise would be fairly easy.

    And reopening of Camberwell station would make enoromous sense - there is lots of demand from local people and essentially it would only require a new station to be built (on the existing Camberwell Station Road!) which if its was dlr would not need to be as complex as overground (I assume).

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  46. 'Abbey Road' station (between West Ham and Stratford High Street stations on the map)... that's going to result in some confused tourists looking for a famous zebra crossing over there ;-)

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  47. On the subject of renaming the DLR, the system is still centred on the docklands and all lines lead to it, even if its lines extend further into the rest of the city. What would you call it anyway? The East End Metro?

    I do share concerns of some of the above posters that the system was meant to be cheap and simple and now we are over loading it with new lines, platform extensions and so on when if we had foreseen such a large network we would have come up with a larger solution. Maybe we should think about replacing it rather than extending it?

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  48. This government is talking about making the procedure simpler for getting major projects to happen so there may be some rejigging with the accompanying paperwork and procedural process but it should get easier not harder.

    They already have - Planning Act 2008 set up the Infrastructure Planning Commission for Nationally Significant Infrastructure Projects (NSIPs), but only applies to Network Rail and HS1. TWAO procedures still apply to TfL proposals.

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  49. There are already two tube lines running between Kings X/StP and Euston - do we really need a third link?

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  50. @Anon

    Agreed. Though, actually, there are 2 tube lines *and* the SSL (even before the Euston rebuild it's not that bad)...and to think, they want to divert Crossrail 2 that way as well!

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  51. Repaidtransitman3 May 2011 at 14:32

    @ JohnB Thx for the clarification.

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  52. Why extend the DLR (in the West) at all? Surely smaller self contained lines are less prone to knock on disruption, hence the plans to split the Northern Line.

    Better to build a new line, perhaps a figure of eight something like:
    Bank
    Ludgate Hill
    CHX
    Vic
    Nine Elms
    LBG
    Bank
    Hoxton
    St Pancras
    Euston
    Holborn
    Ludgate Hill
    Bank

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  53. Nice posting am in the field. I happy to say this you are good to update your blog keep it up. All the best for your all project in success manner…

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  54. DLR to Charing Cross? That'd be like the slowboat to Chinatown.

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  55. Anything that spreads the Tube <-> DLR interchange load at Bank is a good idea, in my opinion, one of the DLR's main limitations at the moment is the fact that the bulk of its Central London connectivity is done via this single (very crowded) interchange.

    Also (slightly off-topic) - has anyone else spotted the 'Broadmead' station on the map (south of Catford Bridge, between there and Lower Sydenham)? I've not heard that proposal before.

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  56. Broadmead is an area, not a station...

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  57. Does anybody refer to an area of Broadmead? It is more or less Bell Green, where I was suggesting (above) that the DLR terminate rather than in Forest Hill town centre.

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  58. Anon @ 1938

    But notice how the font (type + size) of Broadmead is identical to that for other National Rail stations on the map.

    The only non-station in that style of font is "River Roding" next to the Dagenham Dock branch. All the boroughs etc are in red capitals.

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  59. I'm surprised by the absence of one proposal from this map - the All Saints to Crossharbour route - http://londonreconnections.blogspot.com/2009/10/dlr-horizon-2020-all-saints.html

    The core of the DLR remains the Canary Wharf area, and relying primarily on the one through line doesn't make much sense (capacity and resilience), thus the idea of an "East side" line through the Wharf makes huge sense.

    Personally, I'd choose to go All Saints to South Quay rather than Crossharbour, and then take the line on by tunnel to Rotherhithe and then above ground to Surrey Quays. Even more bold would be to take it on to Peckham Rye via Peckham High Street, potentially stealing the new London Overground formation (and thus allowing greater frequency to the other three ELL destinations.

    I suspect that such a route would evaluate very well, with the high number of new connections to the jobs at Canary Wharf, and the relief of the Jubilee (ELL users would change at Surrey Quays for the new DLR instead).

    In town, any use of the Cannon Street/CharingX alignment for anything smaller than another crossrail would be a criminal waste of underground space (there are very few spare alignments).

    And Catford should only be done if the Bakerloo is definitely heading to Hayes (whereas, I'd say it should take the entire Greenwich service to Abbey Wood, with Crossrail serving points beyond there).

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  60. "Anonymous said... There are already two tube lines running between Kings X/StP and Euston - do we really need a third link?"

    If the proposed DLR terminus is a short walk from High Speed platforms 11, 12 & 13 at StPI, yes please. Some of us would find that a really convenient way to get to Euston from Stratford International.

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  61. "Anonymous said... There are already two tube lines running between Kings X/StP and Euston - do we really need a third link?"

    Changing trains Euston->KXSP with cases, kids etc via the tubes doesn't work, especially in rush hour. Plus it's probably actually a shorter walk to do it down the street than navigate all the tunnels to the platforms at both ends. I'd guess most serious (ie with luggage/kids/dignity) Euston/KXSP transfers right now are done by black cab.

    An airport style connection which can take luggage trolleys, pushchairs etc is essential for a modern transport hub, not getting crammed onto a packed commuter train. Which is why incorporating the APM into the DLR might defeat the object somewhat, aside from the practical considerations of cramming the DLR into the space above or below Phoenix road.

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  62. I'd actually quite like to see the Bank - Holborn - Euston - St Pancras option developed. It would be sensible, linking the Docklands directly to HS1/HS2/WCML/MML/ECML services.

    I imagine a majority of trains running all of the way to St P, with some turning at Euston perhaps.

    I do wonder if a variation to the route might be possible that brought Aldwych back into use - this might open up alterations to bus provision on the Euston-Russell Sq-Holborn-Aldwych-Waterloo stretch that was to be the core of the Cross River Tram. It might be a slight detour and a sharp turn, but the DLR is better at that than the tube.

    The St Pancras extension would also take some pressure off of the Northern Line between Euston and Bank, and significantly reduce interchange to/from the Northern at Bank.

    If the key issue is throughput at Bank, then surely the best thing would be to build Bank-Holborn-St Pancras first, and then follow on with the Victoria extension as well.

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  63. Two further questions:

    1) Would using single track between St P and Euston be feasible? Might make it easier to find a way through.

    Personally, I'd come southwards out of Euston on the Eversholt Rd side, elevated section straight along the Euston Road, and up Midland Road on the BL side. But that's because I'm a bit mad.

    2) This extension is clearly ambitious. However, perhaps a first step would be to build the Euston-St Pancras section as a stand-alone shuttle. The DLR technology and setup is proven, and not vastly costly. It wouldn't have to be called the DLR, but if it looked and worked the same then it'd have the right 'Londonness' about it and could be built to make it easy to fill in the gap at a later stage.

    Even if it never got joined up, perhaps there'd be some sense in having interchangeable systems and parts between the two. Possibly even an economy to be had from having it operated as part of the DLR contract.

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  64. Interesting article - thanks.

    @stephenc. The east route around Canary Wharf might be more of a technical challenge than you think. The docks (or at least, that part of the docks to the east of the DLR bridge at Herons Quay) are still navigable and used (albeit not used much). You'd need a very high bridge over the docks to maintain navigation rights.

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  65. @anon 13:33

    If the navigation is not used much then you might be able to get away with a moderately high moving bridge (so as to let much of the traffic though) but which can be opened to let larger ships pass.

    Opening of the bridge would probably restricted to off-peak times, but that is hardly unusual for bridges these days.

    I believe that opening bridges for both OHLE and third rail electrified railway lines are in operation in this country, so there so it should be technically feasible and acceptable to HMRI and the H&S brigade.

    The same solution could be adopted for any crossing of the river. No span greater than that of tower bridge would be required as vessels larger than this are unable to pass through the Thames Barrier.

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  66. Can't believe it hasn't been mentioned yet, but what on earth is Medusa?

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  67. Pedantic of Purley4 May 2011 at 19:58

    Well spotted ! No-one has commented on the proposed station at Thames Wharf either.

    I think Medusa is a made-up name based on Medusa Road which would probably be a more correct name if it were not for the fact that the station wouldn't actually be in Medusa Road. If you search on a map (e.g. streetmap) for Medusa Road you can get a pretty good idea of where the proposed station would be located given that at this point it would almost certainly run parallel to the real railway.

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  68. Today's Evening Standard mentions the Medusa station!

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  69. Two points:

    Instead of closing tower gateway (which was ment to verge flagship DLR station could the track between poplar and the Tower Gateway/Bank junction be put upto four track ie a pair for the tower gateway section, and a pair going underground to bank and beyond. Therefore allowing increased capacity on the entire network by providing more termination points

    Secondly - for the person proposing a station in Aldwich/Fleestreet - as far as I was aware there is a station there already (called Aldwich) which was closed due to lack of demand, however with cross rail coming this may well become more in demand in the future again, but could the branch be extended south of Aldwich to somewhere else??????

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  70. Yes, Aldwych is a disused station on a branch off of the Piccadilly line, as has been mentioned above in relation to its surface buildings.

    But no, there's no point trying to reopen it - it was a shuttle service to/from Holborn, and both track layout at Holborn and capacity on the Piccadilly line would preclude running anything more meaningful.

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  71. I was not agitating opening it back up on the picadilly line, but in theory it could be used as part of an extension with new tunnels running south to say Waterloo. It could well terminate at Holborn (if both the 'serviceable' platform and the now 'storage area' were decommissioned to create a termination point) it could then form another Waterloo and city style shuttle into the city allowing interchange to the central line an onto St Pauls etc. for city folk in the morning rush etc.

    The platform length issue would need to be resolved however.

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  72. This sounds analagous to Manchester Metrolink's "Big Bang" extensions; a raft of new routes that will see that system expand massively

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  73. William Barter5 May 2011 at 13:57

    How about taking it North of Euston to Camden then on tracks now used by the DC line for 3 trains per hour and terminate at Queens Park. Then let the Bakerloo take over the service to Watford.

    Everyone could have a higher frequency service at the same time as freeing up a platform at Euston.

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  74. Any chance of extending along the old NLR from Bow to Homerton via Victoria Park? That would connect with Overground services and maybe the Chelney line one day.

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  75. @ian
    no chance of that unless you want to knock down all the housing thats been built on the track bed and reinstate a demolished bridge over east cross motorway

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  76. @Jeremy 2312
    An elevated railway along Euston Road would seem an attractive idea but the arup report - http://bit.ly/juGjix - basically dismisses it as infeasible due to the Circle/Met line underneath. The supports required for an elevated railway, whether DLR, Monorail or even Cable Car, would need to have foundations right where the tube is.

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  77. There seems to be little integration with Crossrail in these proposals. If the Victoria branch will go to City Thameslink anyway, surely the better option would be to go Bank - Farringdon - Russell Square - St. Pancras - Euston ?? This would tie in with the new rail hub that is being created at Farringdon, provide integration with a host of lines, and also increase capacity at Russell Square, which technical challenges aside, does not really meet the potential of a station in one of the tourist accommodation hotspots?

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  78. There's no need for further DLR interchange with Crossrail.

    Crossrail will already link to the DLR at Stratford, Canary Wharf and Custom House.

    For passengers from the West:

    The above interchanges for DLR stops east of Shadwell.

    The ELL at Whitechapel for Shadwell.

    For Bank: Central line from Liverpool Street or Northern from the Moorgate end of Liverpool St Crossrail.

    For City Thameslink: Thameslink from Farringdon.

    For Holborn: Central Line from TCR.

    For Charing Cross: Northern line from TCR.

    For Green Park: Jubilee line from Bond Street.

    For Victoria: Circle line from Paddington.

    For Euston: Northern line from TCR.

    For St Pancras: subsurface from Paddington or Moorgate.

    All a direct connection with Crossrail would do is risk overcrowding.

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  79. [IMG]http://i51.tinypic.com/2i7sb4i.jpg[/IMG]
    A branch to Peckham Rye through the existing rail corridor would be much cheaper than the Forest Hill extension This, in conjunction with the new overground line, would allow allot of the daily traffic from SW London to Canary Wharf to use this orbital route rather than changing to the congested Jubilee at Waterloo and London Bridge.

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  80. DLR already runs to and from platforms 4a & 4b at Stratford every 6-7 minutes at peak time.

    Pudding Mill Lane station will be replaced so that the new one is out of the way of Crossrail.

    That work will lengthen the two track section and shorten the single track section between Pudding Mill Lane and Stratford platforms 4a/b. I assume that makes a small increase in capacity possible.

    So what's the point of removing the two remaining short sections of single track?

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  81. At the moment there is a very poor DLR connection at Lewisham with the mainline services that pass just a few hundred yards away. The many commuters travelling to Canary Wharf on the main line are forced to continue to London Bridge to join the very long queues for the Jubilee Line. Is there a case for extending the line to Bromley North to provide this link with the main line, to relieve the existing very high levels of overcrowding from Grove Park into London and reduce pressure on the Jubilee Line. Looks as though there would be a lot to be gained from this.

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  82. Its gone from the DLRs page!

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  83. What I don't understand is that a few years ago they rebuilt the Waterloo to Bank line now as I don't do London for work does anyone know if it would have been possible to incorporate this into a DLR extension somehow?

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  84. Look at the alignments , http://carto.metro.free.fr/cartes/metro-london/index.php .

    Possible then to run Tower Gateway - Large Overbridge over the Thames ( possible as main building in the way is London Met Uni , which is in public ownership , then Station for City Hall/Potters Field, down underground to W&C Waterloo , W&C to Bank , then onto Liverpool St [moorgate interchange with CrossRail , Shoreditch High St , Bethnal Green ( poss intermediate station , will assist buses along Bethnal Green Road which are packed at peak times ) , then Roman Road / Old Ford , Pudding Mill Lane and into Stratford. Expensive East London and Bank , Tunnelling , but significantly frees up Labour Costs on W&C, increases reliability , improves Crossrail access to East London and keeps East London bias of DLR

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  85. Opportunity Missed ? Non DLR but Northern Line Essex Road branch from Moorgate extend into Cannon Street ( terminate in Hayes ? ) ,could have been done when the large office block behind Mansion House area was being redeveloped.

    Also off DLR , HS2 into the old Northern Line Reliving Tunnels ( connect with Crossrail at TCR ) to Terminate at Gatwick via East Croydon , does not create many new routes , but does save a terminal at Euston ( agree with Close Euston , ( Watford Primrose Hill Locals to run via Camden Road Junction to St Pancras or Thameslink.

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